ionic: ((xfc) charles - ready)
[personal profile] ionic
The basis for this is First Class, rather than any of the other movies/any of the comics.

This is the informal version (read: I am basically copying/pasting bits from emails with [livejournal.com profile] stlkrchck, because her replies help me make more sense, but is more than what I was @-rambling to [livejournal.com profile] pocky_slash on Twitter) of one aspect on how I view Charles Xavier.



To: [livejournal.com profile] stlkrchck
From: [livejournal.com profile] chiasmus
Subject: Charles' complicated set of ethics.

I guess the first major point is: he has morals! and this is a mostly canon rant, but it is the basis from which I extrapolate any of my AU versions of Charles, SO.

That's why I can't ever really get into dark!Charles fics, or fics where Charles leaves with Erik on the beach. Like, even as everything and everyone disappoints him on the beach, /genocide is not okay/ and will not be okay and I still have SO many problems that they (the writers/directors/whoever) had Erik do that, but that is another matter. Anyway, I think Charles has morals that aren't readily apparent to anyone else. One of the things is yes, exactly, he doesn't manipulate people in a harmful way unless under extreme circumstances (for example, Shaw was a major exception, because of all the nuclear war crap, and also, on a more immediate level, if it came down to a decision between Erik or Shaw — since god only knows what was going on Shaw's mind while Charles held him down, or what he would have done to Erik had Charles let his control over Shaw slip — of course Charles would picked Erik. It's something I don't think he would regret doing (feel guilty over, definitely yes; regret, no), that he would in all likelihood do again if he had to relive the moment, but at the same time he would still have issues with the whole, I was complicit in someone's murder, even someone like Shaw, because I think Charles really, really wanted Erik to somehow find some way to subdue Shaw without killing him for a lot of different reasons.

[Also, going back to the conversation Charles had with Erik over chess the night before Cuba, Charles did, in fact, have it in him to allow Shaw's death to happen, and I really, really want something — I technically started something and never finished it — that addresses this, this being the decision Charles made, and Charles being upset/angry/a lot of complicated feelings at Erik, too, and all of these other things, then them having a falling out over what Charles experienced when Erik killed Shaw, because I feel like Charles knew what it would be like, since he has been in others' minds before, and he kept all of that to himself, for his own reasons. The thing I was writing involved Jean's comic backstory — how she went into a vegetative state because her mind was linked with her best friend's at the time of death — and when Erik finds out these things he puts two and two together and there is a lot of arguing. This was a mutant school AU wherein Erik was still at Westchester, but things were still not really settled into any kind of easy thing and I don't even know. I am stopping this tangent now.])

Anyway. There are definitely certain lines Charles won't cross. He genuinely wants everyone to reach their full potential, and he wants there to be a peaceful co-existence between mutants and humans, but it's not like he's just going to mess with everyone's minds to achieve this. (I got angry at a fic where Charles was blatantly just abusing his telepathy and manipulating everyone around him in a completely amoralistic sense, because that is so far off base, in my mind, from his character that I can't even handle it). He will try to nudge things in that direction, but not a literal "I am going to telepathically make you do this" nudge, even though he could. He also, through some mixture, I think, of the way his life has thus far been, a level of arrogance, and what I imagine it's like to be a telepath, wants things to be done his way, because he honestly believes he knows what's best for everyone (that he wants Raven to not go around naked and blue because that's what's /safest/ for her, not because he thinks there's anything wrong with it, the conversation with Erik about how killing won't bring him peace, and other things I'm probably too tired to think of right now). He's totally got a huge ego and is kind of a dick sometimes (or more than sometimes; the other thing I get angry at in fic, when people go the opposite end and make Charles a pushover/too nice/perfect/self-conscious because there isn't really anything in the film to indicate this, from my interpretation of it at least), and he really needs to learn how to make concessions (Erik needs to learn this, too, but for different reasons). In any event, he's really secure in himself in a way that none of the others really are (and that's part of the reason why I think he had trouble relating to Raven's insecurity: he just didn't understand it, at all, because at least from what we see of him in most of the film, there's none of that kind of uncertainty from Charles, and I do think that most of the time he was respecting her wishes and not reading her mind).

Continuing off of that, he does use his telepathy as a way to relate to people, but not in like, an intentionally invasive way. I don't think he goes around trying to read everyone's life history/know all of their secrets or whatever, it's just something that comes into his mind, because that's how his power works.

To: [livejournal.com profile] chiasmus
From: [livejournal.com profile] stlkrchck

Okay, yes, first things first, canon absolutely should be the basis of AUs, and I feel really strongly about that, if you can't already tell from my questions on what Charles or Erik would or wouldn't do, so I am delighted that you feel the same way too. :)

I am completely with you on this. The closest I can get to reading/understand Charles as dark is stories in which Charles does something that is morally dubious (like controlling someone, killing someone, forcibly changing people's minds, etc.), but only because he needs to prevent violence, particularly to the people he cares about, and even that I have serious problems with.

I do agree with you that Charles probably has an incredibly strict, incredibly detailed set of morals for him that really don't make sense to anyone who's not a telepath. I imagine Emma probably finds them incredibly limiting but also somewhat compelling because of how internally consistent they are to a telepath.

(I also want, like, all the fic where Emma talks to Erik about Charles and explains Charles to him, because I feel like she would have all these thoughts about how ridiculous Charles is that conversely make Erik have so much more respect for Charles.)

(I want to hear your Erik feelings too!)

Yes, exactly, I think Charles thought about killing Shaw and knew he'd do it and accepted it, and I think he's still conflicted about it, and I think a part of him will always feel terrible about it, because in his mind, he became a murderer. (I also think this gets all mixed up inside him, and sometimes he thinks, "I let myself become a murderer for Erik," and sometimes it becomes, "Erik made me a murderer.")

I really love hearing about this story, which I would love to read. I kind of believe Charles thinks of the pain as penance for killing Shaw, and I want Erik to (1) understand how painful it was, because I don't know that it's clear from the movie that Erik ever understood that it hurt Charles. How would he hear Charles screaming? He can't hear him in his mind, because he's got the helmet on. And it isn't clear that they're close enough for Erik to hear him scream, given that they needed to talk mind to mind to communicate to begin with, and to (2) get that Charles is having a hard time living with this and does feel that it's penance. By which I mean that I have all the feelings about this and want this story.

Also, I really don't buy fic in which mutant minds feel *different* in some way to Charles, and I think this is something that Erik doesn't understand: that Charles knows that, while they may be the race of the future, there is no real difference between mutants and humans as when it comes to thoughts. Not everyone agrees with me on this, but that's what I think. And how can Erik possibly expect him to accept that there's such an enormous difference when, mentally, there is no difference for Charles.

I...yes, exactly, this! He's a dick! He's got an enormous sense of entitlement! He's self-centered! He thinks he knows what's best for people! But he's not evil and he care deeply about people and he doesn't manipulate them for the sake of manipulating them and he would do anything to protect the people he loves and promote their happiness, even at the expense of himself.

I think he just doesn't know how to relate to people without the telepathy too. I mean, I think first of all that he's incapable of turning it off all the way. I hate fic where people have him able to just flip a switch, because I don't think his control is that good, and even if it is, I would imagine it's an enormously shocking sensory deprivation if he can do it at all.


To: [livejournal.com profile] stlkrchck
From: [livejournal.com profile] chiasmus

Yeah, I can see those things, in that scenario (preventing violence, protecting people he cares about), but only as a very last recourse or entirely in the heat of the moment if he just cannot think of another way around it. To go into anything more dubious than that would take like, a lot of building up to and just require a lot of other difficult things that usually don't get brought up.

This. I also just want, like, all of the fic of Charles and Emma interacting with each other as telepaths who have a lot of diverging views on how it should/shouldn't be used, but still having common ground insofar as "this is the kind of thing only another telepath would understand" both in how they perceive the people around them/how they are perceived by the people around them. But really, in the long list of things I wish the movie had done better, utilizing Emma is one of them.

(I really, really want this fic, too. I think I read something like it? Containing Multitudes, I think, which at least had a conversation between Erik and Emma about telepathy; I can link if you've not read it already.)

(My Erik feelings might take longer to formulate? I love Erik, but he frustrates me in a way/I have to dig deeper to articulate him in a way that I feel doesn't fail. Not to say that the thoughts are any less extensive or the ones of Charles are shallower, but I, uh, relate to Charles more than I do to Erik [not just in an experiential sense, but the way each views the world and people and motivations/reactions/personality traits], which is why I am always like, stop me if I'm projecting too much in our AU, haha.)

I agree with all of this, too. That it's the kind of thing Charles would carry around with him, and I could definitely see how those two thoughts end up going through his head and all of that.

It's one I started writing back in... August? That I come back to every so often and it's really not even that long, but I will send it to you if I ever get more of it formulated. And, yeah, those are pretty much the main two things I wanted to try to address with it. 1.) I'm pretty firmly of the belief that Erik doesn't know. In fact, I kind of think Moira might be the only one other than Charles who does know anything at all of it, since she was in the plane with him (Raven helping Hank and the other kids involved in fight and all), he said that he was holding Shaw down, and then she pretty much got to hear him beg Erik to not do this, then Charles screaming in pain, which I always thought contributed to why she fired at Erik (because Charles wouldn't be able to talk Erik down, or subdue him, and even if she knows Erik can deflect bullets, it's a distraction, and she didn't think he would deflect the bullet towards Charles, but I may be reading too much into that). 2.) Yes, exactly. Charles has so many reservations and problems with what happened, but these are all things he contributed to and has to live with, and it's not something he would forget to begin with/let himself forget and the guilt that goes along with that.

No, I mostly agree — I think that the only ones who might feel different are other telepaths (for obvious reason), possibly teleporters (since they move around all over the place). I think the only time he might feel any kind of difference is when he's hooked up to Cerebro, but that's more of a Cerebro functionality/heightened thing, but that being an exception, not the everyday. And, yeah, Charles definitely believes they are the race of the future, but that certainly doesn't equivocate to, therefore we must kill the humans off to protect ourselves, because /no/, that is really not how evolution works.

Yes! He's selfish! and entitled! and so sure of himself! but his actions primarily come from a place of caring and even if some of the ways he approaches it may be misguided (like, with Raven, and her "cosmetic problem" I think he was really just trying to encourage her to do whatever would make her happiest without endangering her rather than realizing she was seeking some kind of validation/reassurance). Yes, yes, yes to Charles not just manipulating people without a damn good reason. Ugh, seriously, these are all the reasons why I love him, and I always side-eye any fic that has him being perfect or whatever, because he really is not and that is what makes him so interesting (and the same with Erik and Raven and everyone).

I definitely don't see at as a switch. I imagine it's like forcefully depriving yourself of any one of your other senses.



If you don't want to read all of that, the bottom line is: I have really strong opinions on Charles and get so sad when people write him in ways that are disingenuous or oversimplified to his character, because I love that he is like, one giant walking gray area and wants what's best for everyone and is still kind of an asshole who's used to getting his way, though I know that's a hard balance to get right (and sometimes I don't think I get it right, but I am always super excited when someone else does).

Commencing LJ communication

Date: 2012-01-25 09:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stlkrchck.livejournal.com
This is so exciting to see here! I've already emailed you most of my thoughts, but, yes! All of this!

I will probably come back later and have more thoughts than just "!!!" so think of this as a placeholder?

(I love your emails, btw. They challenge me and make me think and laugh out loud and have ALL THE FEELINGS. I just wanted you to know :D)

Re: Commencing LJ communication

Date: 2012-01-25 10:58 pm (UTC)
ext_11663: by flyingmachine on LJ (Default)
From: [identity profile] chiasmus.livejournal.com
Yes! I read them on my phone and I will reply to them once I'm back home later. :D

Hooray, more thoughts! I want to hear all about them.

(Aww, I am glad, considering how much I word vomit all over you—and the feeling is mutual, since yours make me do all of the same things, and forces me to actually articulate these things. Sometimes it's really hard to not just write UGH HIS FACE.)

Re: Commencing LJ communication

Date: 2012-01-25 11:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stlkrchck.livejournal.com
UGH HIS FACE.

(It had to be done...)

Re: Commencing LJ communication

Date: 2012-01-26 12:31 am (UTC)
ext_11663: by flyingmachine on LJ (Default)
From: [identity profile] chiasmus.livejournal.com
HE HAS SUCH A GOOD FACE. (http://pics.livejournal.com/chiasmus/pic/001ksek5)

Re: Commencing LJ communication

Date: 2012-01-26 12:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stlkrchck.livejournal.com
I HEART HIM SO MUCH. SO MUCH.

ALL THE FEELINGS.

P.S. I love that you and I are ignoring substantive comments in favor of work (which I probably should have done a few hours ago...) and yet: THIS.

Re: Commencing LJ communication

Date: 2012-01-26 12:51 am (UTC)
ext_11663: by flyingmachine on LJ (Default)
From: [identity profile] chiasmus.livejournal.com
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, HIS FACE IS IMPORTANT.

But yeah, I actually have to do some of the things, so I might not be able to reply until around 10 to the longer things?

Re: Commencing LJ communication

Date: 2012-01-26 12:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stlkrchck.livejournal.com
No worries! That's actually perfect for me :) I may ignore my phone till 10ish too if you don't mind..,

Re: Commencing LJ communication

Date: 2012-01-26 01:09 am (UTC)
ext_11663: by flyingmachine on LJ (Default)
From: [identity profile] chiasmus.livejournal.com
I am fine with this. :) I'm sure you can just imagine me going UGH, HIS FACE at you every half hour.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-01-26 12:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pocky_slash.livejournal.com
Oh my god, I agree with basically everything you've said here, but we'll see if my brain is coherent enough for form responses.

1) Charles' moral code:
omg, pretty much this. Charles has his own crazy moral code that totally doesn't make sense. Like, he'll read someone's mind to find out what they want to drink or flirt with them or get himself out of a sticky situation, particularly when he's drunk. (I think, anyway.) Where he's like, "I will just erase the barkeep's memory of me putting my hand down that dude's pants in the backroom and we'll all go away happy!" And he's okay with that because it's innocuous and it's not hurting anything and it's not really a violation because everyone comes away happier than they would have been anyway and it has no real emphasis on the outcome except to avoid everyone being angry and fighting.

(Also, I think, because they're strangers. It's different with his friends, which he KNOWS is a double standard, but tries not to think about.)

But someone like Erik or Raven sees him doing that and is like, "Would you change my mind if I disagreed?" and he gets hurt and offended because don't they see? He cares about them! Of course he would never do that to him! That would have real consequences and ramifications in his relationships! But they don't see the difference, of course.

2) Charles and Raven:
YES, OKAY, EVERYTHING YOU SAID ABOUT CHARLES AND RAVEN. Is Charles coming off as a dick the way he talks to Raven about hiding her identity? Yes. Is he doing it because he can't stand to be seen with a gross blue sister? NO. In the scene where he's working on his thesis, she's blue the entire time. The only time is throws him for a loop is when she's like, "Would you date me while I was blue?" the implication being would he be seen in public with her while she was blue. He has no problem throwing an arm around her and cuddling up to her in her natural form. He's not at all disgusted by her. But he is intensely wary of what would happen to her if people turned against her and lashed out against the unknown.

He's coming from a place of privilege and he's being kind of a dick about it, but in that last scene where she's NAKED, she's kind of being a dick too. He doesn't say, "Turn blonde again," he says, "Go put some clothes on." BECAUSE HIS LITTLE SISTER IS WALKING AROUND NAKED IN A HOUSE FULL OF TEENAGE BOYS. Like, legit, Erik, you're kind of a skeevy bastard talking a young, clearly insecure and impressionable girl, into walking around the house naked.

There's this bit in the sequel to No Yesterdays on the Road where Raven and Erik are talking about Charles has said something insensitive and then had a pissy fit and stormed out where Raven's like, ""Let me tell you something about my brother," Raven says, stepping into the room from the hallway. "He says things without thinking them through, without thinking about intent. He forgets that not everyone is a telepath, not everyone can understand all the nuances of meaning from the thoughts behind a handful of words. About...I don't know, 20% of the time, he ends up saying something meaningful and kind and wonderful, the kind of thing that makes you smile for days, and he's totally confused because he's always meant those things, how are you only just getting it now? The other 80% of the time, he's a complete asshole and doesn't even realize it because he's not saying what he means because he forgets that he has to."

Which is to say, I don't think Charles MEANS to be a dick to Raven (and everyone else), but he's so used to knowing everyone's intentions even when they're not clear vis-a-vis their words that he forgets that when HE'S not clear vis-a-vis his words, people don't know what he's actually thinking.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-01-26 12:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pocky_slash.livejournal.com
3) Charles and Shaw and Moira.
I totally agree that Charles a) allowed Erik to kill Shaw because he knew Erik needed to do it himself and b) that Moira is the only one that knows how much it hurt him. I'm going to address this more in the sequel to No Yesterdays on the Road, but Charles, at that point, knew that there was no other way to stop Shaw. (I personally think that he knew it that night of the chess game but chose to not say "kill" because he thought it would be uncouth.) He's not unreasonable--he can't have thought there was an easy way to contain them. He could have killed Shaw himself while he was inside his head, but he allowed Erik to do it because he knew Erik needed to do it and he knew Erik would resent him if he did it himself. He knew he would be complicit in the murder, but I think he came to terms with that, despite his pacifism.
As for Moira, she aims specifically for the helmet. She could have gotten in a chest shot before he noticed--the first bullet pings off the helmet while he's distracted by something else. And even if the suits were bulletproof, a chest shot would have stunned him, at least. No, she aims for the helmet because she knows if she can get it out of the way, Charles can get Erik back under his control. I don't think Moira dislikes Erik (um, obviously. This is me.), but she recognizes him as a threat and recognizes that the helmet + the pain Charles just went through means that Erik is no longer listening to Charles and she needs change that if they all want to get out of this alive.

4) Charles is a dick.
OH MY GOD CHARLES IS A DICK. Charles is rich and white and educated and cultured and he knows exactly what you're thinking all the time. He has his own moral code and the annoying habit of genuinely seeing all the sides to the story. OF COURSE HE'S A DICK, MAN. He's a sanctimonious asshole who thinks his way is the right way so he can just steamroll everyone into going along with him because--well, he's right, isn't he? So people should just do everything his way.

Like, honestly, he's totally a jerk, albeit a well meaning one, and he's also TWENTY-FOUR and SPOILED and even if you buy into the "telepathy has aged him beyond his life experience" angle, it's canon that he's never met someone like Erik before/had these feelings before (whether you classify them as the fanon lovers or the canon soulmates). It's new ground. He's going to be irrational.

Nothing irritates me more than Charles Apologists. I hate Zen Martyr Charles even more than I hate Dark!Charles. Because Charles is a dick and I would bet you dollars to donuts that he LOSES HIS SHIT in the weeks between the beach (October 26, I believe) and when we see him with Moira at Thanksgiving (November 22). I would bet that he's STILL upset and losing his shit on a fairly regular basis. Sure, he might put on a good face for the kids (or he might not--ymmv) but his sister and his lover and/or soulmate just ABANDONED HIM TO COMMIT GENOCIDE, PARALYZING HIM IN THE PROCESS. He's twenty-four, it's 1962, nothing is fucking handicap accessible and he's lived his life basically as privledged as possible. (And while I think he can, on a level, relate to Raven hiding herself vis-a-vis his homosexuality, if you read him that way, and has had some hardship re: Kurt and Cain, he's basically come through that mostly okay and has continued to thrive.) This has RUINED HIS LIFE.

As I say to Margaret on a fairly regular basis when discussing post-canon Charles, "Charles Xavier, your life is actualfax the hardest."

(no subject)

Date: 2012-01-26 12:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pocky_slash.livejournal.com
He should be HYSTERICAL. He should be ANGRY AS FUCK. He should be DEPRESSED. I don't buy this, "Totally zen, completely accepting, everything is roses, I've totally gotten used to it already" bullshit. While I don't think any of these things put him past the point of reconciling with Erik and while I would agree he'll get used to all of these things with time, the "I'll forgive you, it wasn't your fault, it's not a big deal" school of thought that seems to pop up in SO MANY reunion fics drives me crazy. It should be more like John and Rodney at the end of "Trinity." The "I don't trust you right now, but you can earn it back because I do still care about you" way of going about it.

(Which, disclaimer, is not to say that I think that paralysis or ANY disability ruins people's lives irrevocably, but in 1962, when you were previously a rich white man AND your sister and lover abandoned you, yes, it's going to really fucking suck and feel like the end of the world.)

Anyway, I've kind of lost steam because I'm hungry and Becca made food and stuff. So I'll end here. These just BRUSH THE SURFACE of my Charles Xavier feelings. And I've lost track of how they relate to yours. BUT YOU HAVE RIGHT OPINIONS. CONGRATULATIONS.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-01-26 12:29 am (UTC)
ext_11663: by flyingmachine on LJ ((xfc) charles - ready)
From: [identity profile] chiasmus.livejournal.com
I JUST WANTED TO SAY THESE ARE THE BEST AND I AM SO GLAD YOU HAVE RIGHT OPINIONS ABOUT CHARLES XAVIER, TOO. I will probably get more of my Charles feelings on you when I'm able to reply later (seriously, why does work have to get in the way of VERY IMPORTANT feelings) and just ALL OF THIS.

(Hahaha, I edited it out of what I posted, but the end of my first email to [livejournal.com profile] stlkrchck was basically, "I'm stopping here because I need food," and though I have a lot of other feelings I am a lazy person.)

(no subject)

Date: 2012-01-26 12:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] afrocurl.livejournal.com
Even if I don't relate to Charles in the same way I can to Erik (I think it's the Jewish side of me that just know he's pain is long suffered and too hard to erase), I'm so down with this.

Charles has this moral code that none of us is going to understand because he's got so much more information than most of the world (well, I'd venture nearly all of the world, but whatever) and that means he's got different ways to handle everything.

Oh, he and Raven! It breaks my heart all the time that he can't see what his conversations with her are doing to her (though I know he's not reading her so he can't tell), but it's one of those faults of being a telepath and having a close friend--he shuts down part of himself to her. That means his ideas have no way to change unless she verbalizes it and TELLS him what the problem is.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-01-26 10:36 am (UTC)
lucathia: (fishbones: ring)
From: [personal profile] lucathia
This. Your view on Charles is precisely what makes me love him as a character, with his morals and his ego. I could never have articulated his characteristics as well as you have in your exchanges.

Do you have any fic recs for fic that gets your vision of Charles across? :3

(no subject)

Date: 2012-01-27 06:26 am (UTC)
ext_11663: by flyingmachine on LJ ((xfc) charles - ready)
From: [identity profile] chiasmus.livejournal.com
I just love Charles so much, it's almost a problem. (It isn't a problem, since it makes me happy, most of the time. :D)

(These are all Charles/Erik, so I hope you don't mind?)

Celestial Navigation (http://archiveofourown.org/works/315806) is the story that first comes to mind, since I read it recently. I love how Charles is characterized here, and the portrayal of how he sees the world.

I pretty consistently adore the way [livejournal.com profile] pocky_slash writes him, so her stuff here (http://archiveofourown.org/users/pocky_slash).

Containing Multitudes (http://archiveofourown.org/works/271325) has one of my favorite dialogues about telepathy, and also is one of my favorite-post canon fics.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-01-27 08:16 am (UTC)
lucathia: (fishbones: green background)
From: [personal profile] lucathia
Thanks for the recs! :) I haven't checked out very many fics for this fandom. I look forward to digging into these.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-01-27 09:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jolinar.livejournal.com
Ahhh, I love your guys thoughts! LOVE!

Charles is such an interesting character to think about.

I think a lot of Charles's problem is immaturity. The guy is 24 (at least according to the credits) in this movie, and he still has a lot of growing up to do between this movie and X1. I think I recall James McAvoy saying that he DELIBERATELY made Charles this beer-drinking, flirty and yet awkward Casanova. He wanted character growth for Charles, and I also think hes looking forward to playing the "growing up" that Charles has to do in the next few movies. Which, for the record, MAKES ME LOVE HIM MORE, THE FACT THAT JAMES GETS IT. But I should leave the fangirling for a sec and get serious again.... ahem.

IMO, Charles has come from a privileged life. Hes intelligent, attractive, witty, and maybe... dare I say it, a little snobby. Hes had a unique understanding of people due to his telepathy, but I also think he has a strong moral foundation (as you guys were saying) that makes him not like to use his telepathy in an invasive way.

It makes me wonder WHERE he learnt his morals from. Morals are a learned behaviour, its not something you are born with, and seeing Charles had disinterested/absent parents, it makes me wonder where he LEARNT his own brand of morals. Maybe Raven had a big part in that? I'd like to think she has a profound influence in his life. Maybe he simply absorbed knowledge from other people, which is why his morals can sometimes be kind of shady (because lets face it, human beings themselves can be shady) and yet he understands that he should always strive to be a GOOD PERSON.

As for his and Erik's relationship and the whole Shaw thing. I think Erik was so caught up in REVENGEREVENGEREVENGE that it didn't occur to him that Charles could be hurting. I don't think he heard him scream, I think with all the fighting and just the pure distance between them he couldn't have. Part of me says NO WAY HE WOULDN'T LET CHARLES HURT, HE LOVES HIM TOO MUCH, but then... Erik's life purpose for SO LONG was revenge. Would he let even love stand in his way? But no, I don't like to think like that - I choose to believe he didn't know. That's my head canon and I'm sticking to it! :P

I also have concerns over Erik and Raven leaving so easily after Charles had been shot. Again my personal head canon (to make me feel better) is that they had no idea the extent of the injury - especially because the Suits were supposed to be BULLET PROOF. If they knew he was hurt so badly there is no way they'd leave someone they love.

I think Charles deliberately chooses to say he can't feel his legs AFTER they're gone, because he didn't want his paralysis to affect their choice. He was letting them choose for themselves, which again is a nod towards Charles's strong moral foundation. He could have easily manipulated Raven there but chose not to. But I digress - I think seeing he chose to time his "I can't feel my legs" in such a way, he'd never want Erik to know he felt Shaw's death, either. I don't think hes even particularly ANGRY at them for their choice either, but hes definitely in pain (I'd say his emotional pain is even greater than his physical there on that beach), there is no doubt about that. Hes just had 2 people he loves the most abandon him, AND lost the ability to walk. If they don't have some sort of emotional and mental upheaval to that in the next few movies, I will freaking DIE.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-01-27 09:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jolinar.livejournal.com
As a side note, and apologies for spamming, I just asked my friend her thoughts on a few of the topics you guys raised. And one response she gave that struck me...

She said she believes Erik knew Charles would feel everything Shaw did, she reckons it'd be a pretty easy assumption to make that control = feeling what that person feels. But given the NEED FOR REVENGE, Erik felt he had no other choice than to kill him. Maybe the conversation from the night before rang through his head as he did it? Peace was never an option... THIS NEEDS TO HAPPEN, even if it has a price.

I also just thought maybe the "sorry Charles" as Erik put on the helmet was both - sorry for blocking you out, AND sorry for what I'm about to do.

AHHHHH! Oh Erik, you have a LOT of apologising to do.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-01-28 06:02 am (UTC)
ext_11663: by flyingmachine on LJ (Default)
From: [identity profile] chiasmus.livejournal.com
I am happy with spam! And I am too tired today to respond properly to the rest of your awesome comment, but I have thoughts.

See, I guess it depends on how much Erik understands of Charles' telepathy and how it works? I mean, I know Erik can tell that Charles can speak in his mind/Charles can see through other people's eyes/make them invisible/do some kind of control, but I'm not sure he actually thinks about what the experience is like for Charles, if that makes sense (I know at one point Charles said he could feel all of the other mutants' minds, but does Erik really understand what that means?). Or at least I didn't feel like it was entirely clear what Erik's level of understanding about telepathy would be. (Like, for Erik's own power, can he feel the metal he controls? If he can't, would he assume it's kind of similar to Charles? I may just be overthinking this though. XD)

All of that being said, I think even if he knew, he still would have killed Shaw. I guess I just prefer thinking that he didn't know/didn't understand the full impact of what happened to Charles? But I can totally see her point and how it could also have happened that way.

OH MOVIE. :( You break my heart every time.

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March 2012

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